April 28th Meeting Notes!

Sunday's meeting was fantastic, and our group continues to grow! I've included a couple of links in today's e-mail, as well as some follow up information from different members. (There are more events listed in the meeting notes.)

First of all, there is an Indivisible movie event on the horizon, the information is as follows (thank you Tara!)

Friday May 17
6:30-8:30
Carl Chavis YMCA
2757 Granville St High Point

Join us for a free screening of Wilmington on Fire.

This feature-length documentary depicts the story of a government-sponsored massacre committed on an African-American community in North Carolina during the Jim Crow era, which is considered one of the only successful examples of a violent overthrow of an existing government and left countless numbers of African-Americans dead and exiled from the city. This event was the spring-board for the White Supremacy movement and Jim Crow segregation throughout the state of North Carolina and the American South. This incident has been barely mentioned and has been omitted from most history books. It was not until 2006, after the North Carolina General Assembly published a report on it, that the tragedy became known to the general public.
Trailer at: http://wilmingtononfire.com/about/

We are honored to have Phyllis Bridges, who is an award-winning historian and documentary film maker, leading a casual, organic discussion after the film.

This is a collaborative effort of Indivisible Guilford County NC, The High Point Peacemakers, High Point Commemoration for 400 Years of African American History, and the Carl Chavis YMCA.
FB event:  https://www.facebook.com/events/380692716114513/

FREE POPCORN

Here are our notes for today's discussion, if you missed this one - come to the next one!

Secular Sunday

April 28, 2019

Attendees:

Ann Brady	Sean Bienert	Mike
Jason	Molly	Chris
Brian	Diane	Lisa
Derek	Bob	John
Tara	Dawn	Ann Asheby
Lyn	Stacey	Aaron
Ronnie	Tina	Pam
Joe	Kia

Announcements:

Molly led a great discussion yesterday on The Handmaid’s Tale. Next month is The Year of Living Biblically on May 25th at 5 pm

Indivisible’s next film is “Wilmington on Fire”. May 17th 6:30 – 8:30 High Point Library

Movie Night – May 11th. Elmer Gantry (see the Meetup site for details)

Bowling tonight at Countryside Lanes in Kernersville

Towel Day Pub Crawl is May 25th at Natty Greens starting at 1 pm. How does the Community feel about opening it up to the general public?

Time article The Science of Good and Evil (Do animals have ethics?)

American Atheist Convention was awesome (Lisa)! Religious Blitz is going on across the country (Google it). Response? A lot to do with abortion. Met many prominent atheists. They put together 50k meals for homeless people in Cincinnati. Very cool.

We are getting quite large as a group. Sean (prez) is trying to put together a committee to brainstorm ideas for events.

Gibbs Hundred is sponsoring a farmers market today 12-5

Discussion Notes:

Why do people pray?

Ann (AC) says she likes to pray but doesn’t know how to do it in a non-religious way

Lyn – positive thoughts/vibes

Pam – I will keep you in my heart

Aaron – Sam Harris book Waking Up: A Guide to Being Spiritual without Being Religious

Lisa – Brain studies – when asked what God thinks, religious people think of something they believe. Prayer is a self-soothing mechanism

Molly – In DBT prayer is taught as a coping strategy.

Sean – almost everyone talks to themselves from time to time. Prayer is a safe space to talk things out and figure things out.

Molly – a way to have deep reflection.

AC – you need words to say and if religion is in your past, the words of religion tend to come out.

Aaron – in the east it is common to not direct prayer at specific being. Not so common in the west.

Lisa – NPR 1A – a secular minister/humanist did a secular prayer. (This is a link - again, thanks Tara! The prayer is toward the end.)

Ann – FFR is pushing for government orgs to allow secular invocations

Sean – Jesus says that people shouldn’t pray in public for attention.

John – cognitive dissonance when his sister prays over meals. Says she is reminding an omniscient being of things he already knows. Some other people have had varying experiences.

The generalized “other” – prayer is just one example of our conversations that we have all the time.

Lyn – prayer in Shennando movie with Jimmy Stewart – funny prayer.

Aaron – thanking God instead of the people who actually did the work.

When you’re in control you need to make sure that you keep people under control. God is a good tool for this.

Sean – dramatic scenes where people can’t pray (like in the Crucible) where you must pray in order to stay in good with God.

Aaron – as atheists we should avoid trapping ourselves into ritual behaviors that have no penalty (like  refusing to say amen after prayers). There are so many behaviors we do when we are religious that don’t help anyone. Don’t do the same to yourself now.

Diane – it’s too irritating for her to do it.

Tina – if it doesn’t cost you something. But for her when her husband died the “prayers” and platitudes were offensive. How do you convey that to religious people? How do you enforce your boundaries? It does cost you something sometimes.

Lisa – there is something to be said for standing up for yourself. Not doing it will affect your self-esteem.

Kia (who has NO trouble standing up for herself) – she tries to look at it as if they are toddlers who don’t understand.

Chris – they may be saying it because they don’t know what else to say.

Derek – it can be important to challenge people on the words they use.

Sean – you can’t do that all the time and get along in the world.

John – remember this discussion on movie night. There is a group of free-thinkers and atheists at a tent revival in Elmer Gantry. Sister Something recites a prayer that is very personal that defangs her detractors.

Aaron – watched God’s Not Dead the atheist is the biggest strawman atheist ever. He was a Christian at that time and thought that’s what atheists are. Seeing real atheists helped. Being a Jerk for Atheism is no better than being a Jerk for Jesus.

Sean – the idea that Christians have that atheism is a religion is a common misconception.

Lyn – Andrew Sullivan quote – we are all religious. It is built into us. (She doubts this).

Sean – seeking agency is a survival mechanism. It isn’t an imprint left from god.

John – when he talks to his sister about why he isn’t religious she gets hostile. He tries to tell her that he is trying to use his own mind to figure things out. It is tough to try to do, but you have to.

Aaron – “Show me and I’ll believe” – Thomas. Jesus- “No believe and I’ll show you.”

Sean - the thing that allows people to blindly follow people like Kim Jung Un is very similar to religious belief.

Aaron – preacher told him that the only way you can test god is through tithing. Pay god and see if he performs.

Jews – chosen people. So chose someone else for a while!

John – the closest he gets to prayer is that you just have to recognize sometimes that you are not in control and accept that. That can be a prayer too.

AC – Control the controllable

Everyone (the Serenity Prayer)

Aaron - Dark Matter 2525 on youtube. Wonderful material

Scathing Atheist is also funny.

Mid-April Updates and Notes

Hi everyone!

Tomorrow is our Mad Hatter Tea party - pretty stoked! Anyway, as Kia has been asking me for quite some time to take a Sunday off, I feel that tomorrow is probably the logical choice, seeing as how I will no doubt be very tired (and that is all) that morning.
Additionally, here are the Magnificent Ann's notes (thank you Ann, you really are magnificent!) from last week; Hope to see you soon!

Secular Sunday

April 19, 2019

Attendees:

·         Josh	·         Cheryl	·         Ann
·         Gina	·         Pam	·         John
·         Sean	·         Emily	·         James
·         Uzma	·         Antonio	·         Lyn
·         Tara	·         Lisa	·         Stephanie
·         Derek

Announcements:

April 20 2-11 pm – Mad Hatter Tea Party (Drinking Skeptically) at Sean’s

May 25 – Movie Night at Lyn's and Towel Day (Drinking Skeptically) (See Meetup site!)

April 14 – Hemant Mehta at Carrboro

Jim Hilton has resigned from his position with American Atheists so he won’t be coming in August

“Equal Means Equal” – movie screening at High Point Public Library 4/18 5:30 – 7:30

Discussion Notes:

Text Study!

Niels Bohr quote – “The fact that religions through the ages have spoken in images, parables, and paradoxes means simply that there are no other ways of grasping the reality to which they refer. But that does not mean that it is not a genuine reality. “

The Bible is a way of expressing things that are difficult to express in words. The difficulty makes it seem otherworldly or magical. Our hubris makes us feel that we should be able to understand everything. The wisest among us are usually the least confident.

The Bible is not a historical document but that does not mean that there isn’t truth in it. There are truths that are not facts. Making things binary does not permit this.

Richard Elliot Freeman’s documentary hypothesis is that the Bible is many texts woven into one.

“Meaning of Heb. uncertain” appears under a lot of the text in the Bible. It is especially problematic for words that appear only once so there is not an opportunity to figure it out.

Even when the text is not labeled as “uncertain” it doesn’t mean that the translation is good.

It is written in ancient Hebrew. It was an oral tradition before it was written down and canonized as the Torah. Translation to modern Hebrew is tough. Translation into other languages is even harder.\

Elohim or the 4 letter name of God. (I kind of lost the thread here)

Priestly texts – rules and prohibitions exist because whatever it was talking about was actually happening. Otherwise there is no need to prohibit. The text was contentious when it was written and is still contentious today.

We cannot approach the Bible as a new thing of which we know nothing because it is so woven into our culture.

Mythology  - reflects truth even though it isn’t factually true. Myth is not the opposite of truth.

To Josh, the Bible’s importance is as literature that helps to illuminate the human condition.

1)      Factual

2)      Written to control people

3)      It was inspired. By what? what is inspiration. Is it materialistic.

Dichotomies are a way of framing something so we can understand it. Oppositionality is kind of built in for us. But it isn’t useful all the time. Some things do not lend themselves to binary (yes/no, this/that) types of understanding.

Written for and about humans. Revelations in the text are not of the deity revealing a plan. They reveal things about us.

Writing things in someone else’s name was considered a good thing so attribution to someone “better” is common.

Jennifer Michael Hecht – Doubt, A History

The threat of punishment is an ongoing theme in scripture and in law. Our desire for justice is universal, if not in this life, then in the next.

The Bible is an attempt to impose/overlay order onto what was happening in the real world.

There was a lot of communication and sharing of stories between cultures in the ancient world (Hammurabi’s law code, flood myths)

*Ambiguity in texts is intentional. In translation, the ambiguity is lost. Example – blue has many meanings and associations.

*Internalog (sp?) (as opposed to dialog or monolog) – interal awareness of some critical thing that changes everything for you.  After life isn’t what happens to you after you die. It is this understanding that changes everything so that your life after is different. The world becomes a different place. Example: He-na-ni (Hebrew) – Here I am, can be read as “Oh, this is where I am.”

Erich Fromm – Escape from Freedom people don’t really want to be free.

Levels of the text

1)      Mythic

2)      Moral                                                    ---- which of these is central? None. All essential

3)      Metaphor

“In the beginning…” is one word in Hebrew. Can also be translated as “at the head” or by sound, as “in seeing the light”. It begins in the mind. Let’s start with this idea – light. It is an enlightenment text. Then quickly it becomes conflict between men.

Eden is a compound word – “until judgement”. Is it until we are capable of judgement (adulthood) or until we are judged? Either works in the Eden story.

April is the Gruellest Month

We're having some good Irish weather, and I've been listening to a lot of the Scathing Atheist. If you're not familiar, you should be. It's good.

Be sure to check the meetup.com site for new events. There are a couple up there.

Here are the notes from last week's meeting, courtesy of the wonderful Ann Brady:


Secular Sunday


April 7, 2019


Attendees:

• Ann Brady
• Bill Sparks
• Sean Bienert
• MJ Loflin
• Mike Loflin
• Bob
• Ronnie
• Geoff
• Gene
• Derek
• Pam
• Uzma
• Tara
• Molly
• John
• Gene
• Brian
• Pearl
• Cheryl
• Kathryn
• Joe

Announcements:


Hemant Mehta will be at TFS on Sunday April 14th 2-330. Update on Orange Barrel Guy from Bill. Sean has a new motorcycle. Book club April 27th at 5-630 at Earth Fare. Book is The Handmaid’s Tale. Mad Hatter Tea Party time change 2pm. April 20th . If you have RSVP’d and can’t come, let Sean know because the RSVPs are closed.


Election results: Sean – president, MJ – treasurer, Ann – secretary. Term of office is until April Fools Day 2020. Next time we will have a nominating committee or something. We can move now to a 501-3C status.





Discussion Notes:


John’s sister had a conversation with a woman who came to her church looking for community, as we were discussing last week. Most of us are looking for community. Sean – community is important, but core beliefs are important too. We are not scientific enough for some, too liberal for others, and we’ve been accused of being dogmatic (we don’t get this one at all!)


Limits of God’s powers in the bible. Jesus healing blind man using dirt. If god is limitless, why are the bad things so prevalent and easy to access? Why are some things seemingly necessary in the bible, like child sacrifice.


Ronnie – two grandparents died and Ronnie went back to Texas. His grandfather began a gay relationship after a 20 year marriage. The attitude towards gays in his community caused him to hate his grandfather without ever knowing that he was gay. He only changed his mind when he became an atheist. He picked up on attitudes from family and community that influenced him without actually saying that his grandfather was gay.


MJ – microaggressions. Like the expectation that women should be nice.


Gene – in more closed minded groups they may have friends in the ostracized group, but “those” people are okay, it’s all the rest who are bad.


“Hate the sin, love the sinner.” – it is such and obnoxious saying. In terms of being gay, this is something people cannot control.


Mental health is another area that is taboo, shameful.


Lots of really tacit things that affect how we treat or think about other people.


Christians say that even without heaven as a reward they would still believe. But would they?


Determining what is right and wrong is somewhat subjective (Gene’s survey link www.yourmorals.org)


Even without god you can believe in an objective morality (Sean). If there is an objective morality then some of the things in the bible (comparing Caananite woman to a dog) is objectively wrong.


Kathryn – the western legal system is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. Morality is cultural.


Tara – justice is something that is inborn to small children, so maybe.


John Stuart Mill is the basis of modern liberalism (Gene). There are other foundations that can inform your beliefs. Erisology – studying why people can’t disagree and come to some sort of common ground (see Plato’s Cave posting).


John – flaming gays make him uncomfortable even though he feels that being gay is normal.


In the Righteous Mind there are 5 traits that define our personalities. (Gene). Openness is a defining characteristic of being liberal (the omnivore’s dilemma).


Cultural and societal norms are what influence us (Molly).


It is easier to object to people when you don’t know them.


Moral licensing (Malcolm Gladwell) – “I have a black friend, how can I be racist?” People do something good so it excuses the bad things we do. This also plays into the punishment aspect of criminal justice.





Joe Biden – led into a discussion of touching and when it is okay. Overcoming your habits, etc.