Today:
We had a great conversation today at Secular Sunday. While, as usual, there were a great many tangents, our topic was basically about whether or not it's okay to make fun of religious people. How non-religious people Engage is something we've talked about at great length. Charles and Andy began by pointing out that this a case by case, person by person, situation by situation thing. To wit, it might not be a great idea to start a conversation with a significant other's parents by pointing out a lineage of justifying rape and murder within the religious text of their choice. But, if someone shows up on your doorstep and wants to tell you about the dangers of Xenu, their religion is fair game. A few people shared their feelings on this: ranging from (and I am paraphrasing and probably taking some big liberties, correct me if you feel that I misrepresented or did not represent what you meant) "I just want to be left alone" to "if you're going to knock on my door, be prepared to listen to my feelings" to "if it's someone I care about, I'll act out the act because their comfort is important to me" to "the religion of the person is inconsequential to me, so long as I can sense that they are good people." Again, responses vary as much as the people involved and the situation at hand.
Somewhat predictably, the conversation eventually found its way to the political, pointing out that if a group of people is intentionally forcing religious beliefs, via laws, on another group of people, being polite just isn't going to cut it. That having been said, we talked a bit about how to talk to religious people without coming off as what Michael had aptly described as "the stereotypically combative atheist", which will often turn the discussion into a contest rather than an actual discussion. We talked about having to out-Christian the Christians. And Betty Bowers name was deservedly mentioned. Christian pointed out that attacking fundamentalists of any religion is 1) pretty low hanging fruit 2) a kind of straw man argument. If we were judged - and I'm sure many of us have been - by the craziest examples of atheists, it's a logically fallacious as it counterproductive. That having been said, if a gauntlet has been thrown down and there is no way out, it could be beneficial to make sure that expectations are made clear in the beginning of the discussion. Additionally, if someone is a frighteningly fundamentalist variety of any religion, we discussed the possibility of pointing out to them that there are people, say Episcopalians in the Christian religion, whose views aren't quite so draconian - I don't remember if it was brought up during the discussion, but I think it is quite probable that a true fundamentalist would see any tepid believers as undeserving of whatever reward their religion has promised them or even heretical. That having been said, I think it does stand to reason that we'd be in a lot better world if all of the Baptists were Episcopalians - to make a sweeping generalization. After all, they're the Church of England in America, and we know that they can't have an Inquisition (NSFW and the relevant bit is at the end, but it's worth a view if you haven't seen it.)
Mike asked how much success people have had confronting religious people with the fallibility of their own beliefs, which then brought up what percentage of people's beliefs they actually believe. After all, when Jesus walked (if he existed to walk) the earth, the ideas of Virgin Birth and Resurrection weren't the sole property of any one religion. Followers of Jesus probably even knew this, but at a certain point it wasn't so much whether or not the story was believable as much as it was: is this a good story? And, for better or worse, Jesus' ideas of inclusivity, humility, and charity give Christianity a kind of soft power that's lacking in other religions. Now, many Christians have about as much truck with loving their fellow man as the church did in the poem in Tolstoy's The Brothers Karamazov. (Sorry, English teacher.) As Christian pointed out, these are bad Christians.
There was more to the discussion than that, but I was honestly enjoying myself so much that I didn't take notes. Still, I hope everyone had as good a time as I did.
Next Meetups:
I need to amend what I said at this past meet up and let everyone know that I'm going to be absent for the next two meetups, per plans for Saturnalia and the ushering in of 2018. I shall return on January 6th, perhaps with Douglas McArthur corncob pipe and aviator glasses. The Meetup dates will still be open so that people interested in them can RSVP if they'd like to. Please, if you can think of a topic you'd like to discuss or any changes you might want to float past the group for one of those two dates, you can post them in the conversation threads for December 24th and December 31st, respectively.
2017:
2017 was a year that brought about a lot of changes. I don't think that I am alone in saying that a lot of them were terrible. What I do want to say though, as this will be my last mass e-mail of the year (I think?), is that I love this group. You are all people with whom I feel a significant bond, and I want you to know how important your friendships have been to me. I've been really busy and stressed out since I started teaching in High Point, but I look forward to Sundays as a respite from the pressures and stress of the week. I never had that when I was religious. I either felt bored, felt bad that I felt bored, felt bad that I wasn't good enough, or (as a teenager) was really just pissed off that I had to be there. The members of this group (that's YOU even if I haven't seen you in a while!) challenge me, laugh with me, and make me want to be the best me that I can be. 2017 stunk, but we're about to see the other side of it. I believe that 2018 will be a better year, if for no other reason than the simple dark fact that 2017 hasn't set that bar particularly high. And, even if it isn't, I look forward to facing its challenges with a great group of friends. I know that I am not the only person in the group that feels that way, but we never know unless we tell each other. So, reach out! And, because I cannot resist, if you don't believe me, take it from him! Have a great couple of weeks till I see you again!
(Don't forget to check out www.jovialitybeforemortality.org! I'll be updating it as I've just bought the domain for another year - though right now, it's just going to be this e-mail and a backlog of our older meetings and content. But still, check it out!)
